​MITES! If you are a chicken owner then I have probably scared you. And you probably know the problem of mites in the coop and those ON YOU.

For those new to chicken ownership, many go down the rout of trying as many natural products as possible in their coop and on their hens.

However, there are many NATURAL products that are just as toxic if not worse than the commercial chemical product.

​Are all oils safe for chickens?
​I recommend checking out the Chicken Whisperer's website, Facebook page and magazine where he expertly delves into the facts behind using oils, their claims and results.
​

GOOD NEWS FIRST
I highly recommend using Tea Tree Oil on humans....only. Externally only.

When you are tackling the cleaning of mite infested chicken shed and pest dusting or medicating the chickens, you will inevitably get mites on you. They are so small that you will not be able to find them all. You might even notice them walking across your phone screen!

Immediately change out of your coop cleaning clothes and put them on a hot wash. Have a hot soapy shower to try to remove mites from your body so as to minimise transferring mites into your home furnishings - particularly your bed.

After you shower, apply Tea Tree Oil liberally over parts of your body.

The most common places mites will bite a human are (apply tea tree oil to these parts):

• groin
• torso sides
• behind your knees
• around your ankles
• arm pits and the surrounding area

If you have mites in your bed, it will help reduce bites throughout the night.
TIP: Get a HOT iron and iron your mattress and sheets before bed to kill any mites in there.

​
NOW, THE BAD NEWS
NEVER apply Tea Tree Oil on your poultry!
Because chickens have an oil preening glad, then need to preen daily to keep their feathers healthy.
They do this by using their beak.

If you apply Tea Tree OIL (like preening oil), it can be picked up by the beak and ingested.

Tea Tree Oil is considered to be toxic when taken by mouth.
This applies to birds, animals and humans.

Consuming Tea Tree Oil can cause such side effects, as such:

• confusion
• vomiting
• inability to walk
• unsteadiness
• rash
• coma

Reference: ​https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-113/tea-tree-oil
Reference: https://www.fresheggsdaily.blog/2016/09/potentially-harmful-toxic-herbs-for-chickens.html​


MYTH BUSTING
Even though Tea Tree Oil is genuinely effective in reducing mite bites on you, it does NOT kill a mite, per se.
Mites just hate the smell more than anything. They might even find a part of your body that doesn't have oil on it for a feast.

Over time, with good hygiene techniques, frequent sheet changes, vacuuming, washing, maybe even a headlice treatment, we notice that the mites are not around any more.

If their supply of food is cut off, and they are not within a colony to keep reproducing, they do die out.
So we cannot claim the Tea Tree Oil eradicated the mites. It just reduced their activity of biting us (their food source).

Apply this to the chicken coop now:
#1 It does not KILL the mites
#2 It would be a very expensive job to use enough tea tree oil to cover all the spaces
#3 Tea Tree Oil is TOXIC to chickens that use their beaks for exploring everything
#4 Why not use something that will be genuinely effective the first time round, and save yourself some money?


NATURAL IS NOT ALWAYS EFFECTIVE
Just like milk, strawberries and peanuts are all natural things, people can have severe allergic reactions to these.

Mites need to be hit HARD the first time. And then we keep on hitting them hard.

​
I recommend using:

• Inca Malaban Wash
• Maldison 50

Use as coop spray (once all materials have been removed and cleaned).
And then paint on Malaban/Maldisan onto the night time roosting perches. Mites are most active there.
Always do this in the morning so that the coop has time to fully dry out before the hens go in for the night.

The hens MUST be treated with either Pestene dust or Ivermectin from your vet on the same day, otherwise they bring the mites back in (which they will, but we need to repeat spray).

If you need to, you can submerge your hens, one by one, in a solution of Maldison in luke warm water. Mites will rise to the top of the white water, dead. Keep their heads above water. Do not ever let the solution get onto their faces. Only do this if you are unable to get hold of the other products or the infestation is so severe that there is no other option.

Follow up with a touch up over the next few weeks.


Remember, the Tea Tree Oil is just for use on YOU...externally only. 

Hi everyone,

I expect there are a lot of new eyes on my website due to the amount of people now buying poultry.
​
To introduce myself, I am Janine Zschech, the sole owner/occupant of Adelaide Chicken Sitting Service.


I am a Poultry Pet Sitter and Poultry Educator

I do NOT sell poultry
I am NOT a breeder
But I can help you source what you are looking for.

I do NOT buy or take UNWANTED poultry
I do NOT RESCUE poultry
Please search my blog for rehoming advice. This may change from time to time. The basics remain the same.

I do NOT kennel any birds or poultry
I come to your backyard to care for the pets on your property for their health, safety and comfort.
I practice strong biosecurity to keep birds healthy (not to bring in disease or pests).
I pet sit within a half hour drive of Sheidow Park (SA 5158). Costs double outside of my zone.

I am NOT a vet
I do give sound advice for free via email, text, comments on posts and by phone.
I will direct you to a vet when I can identify that your poultry need more help than a home remedy.
I have a farming background, so my advice is based in sound working knowledge.

I do NOT sell any products
I can help you locate the right product that you need and the general cost and directions on how to use the product.

I do NOT have any incubators for loan
I can help you source incubators (ahead of time!) as well as setting up a brooder for hatched chicks.

I will NOT help you source poultry for slaughter, cock fighting or rituals
I support backyard chicken keepers who want to keep chickens for their company and fresh eggs.
I also support those who need to help find a location for dispatch from their own flock.

I do NOT do any advertising on my website
I do give product reviews here on my blog which will contain positive and negative feedback, as well as how to use a product or service.


I welcome all questions from poultry keepers Australia wide.

​
Everyone has to start somewhere.
If you have never been told, how do you know?

If you do not see your question amongst these, please add them to the comments so that I can answer them for you.
 
​
Let’s jump into some of the most common questions I receive.

​

​Yes they all do. These are the red fleshy parts around a chicken’s head.

A wattle is UNDER the beak.
A comb is ON TOP of the head.

The trickiest ones to see this on is the Araucana, Polish and Silkie breeds (amongst others).
​
Depending on their breeding, they will still have these parts of their anatomy on their heads, but much smaller. The smallest type of comb is called a Walnut or Pea. There are many different shapes and sizes on different breeds of chickens.

These parts indicate the health of chicken, helps with their heat regulation and indicates their breed maturity.
​

Yes and No. Chickens do not make loud noises all of the time.

They have their quiet times and different noises that they make to communicate with one another.

The noisiest part of their day is usually around egg laying time.
They may sing a lot before they even lay an egg, or maybe they only sing the loudest after they have laid their egg. Some hens like to encourage others to lay too, so they can also be the noisy ones.
​
Happy quiet talking is a sign of happy chickens, especially when you walk out into the yard, as they will get excited that you may have a treat for them.
​

Hens can lay only one (1) egg per day.

It takes around 26 hours for an egg to develop inside her reproductive tract in order to be laid.
​
The amount of eggs laid every week will vary between breeds. Some breeds lay less often.
Hybrid hens (ISA Browns or utility Australorps) will lay every day, but other breeds may lay only 3-5 eggs per week.
​

​It is very unlikely that a hen will be aggressive enough to peck you so hard that you will bleed. Hens will get broody from time to time and want to protect their eggs, but they still do not usually peck hard enough to harm you. It is more of a warning peck.

Roosters can be quite aggressive especially when he is mature and protecting his girls. His peck feels worse than a hen’s peck, but his claws and leg spurs are his most dangerous part.
​

​Hens are GIRL chickens. (female)
Cockerels and Roosters are BOY chickens. (male)
​

I don’t sell any of my chickens, sorry.
I am not a breeder, but I can tell you where you can find what you are looking for.
​

To catch a chicken, try to place your hands over the top of their back to hold down their wings.

Easiest method is to pick them up from head on, rather than from behind when picking them up (e.g. from a roosting rail).

Trying to catch a running chicken is the worst, so DO NOT RUN.
Instead, stalk them. Think like a fox and corner them.
​

• Grab at the tail, leg or hands on top of their wings to hold them from flapping.
• Once you have grabbed your chicken, place one hand UNDERNEATH from the chest. You should be able to feel the keel bone underneath. Your other hand can either rest on top, around them or hold the legs. If your hand is resting gently on the keel bone, they should not be struggling.
• A variation on holding them upright: Turn them around and slide your hand around the tops of their legs and interlock your fingers around their legs. This is how birds are inspected at poultry shows.
• A chicken can also be held UPSIDE DOWN.
  ​This is important if you are pest dusting them around the bottom, under the wings and through their chest. It is also useful when you need to catch many chickens at once, to hold many legs together in each hand. Interlock your fingers with their legs.
• For INTERLOCKING: Think of how wine glasses hang up.​
  
• Do not be scared of a chicken flapping and squawking while being held upside down. They run out of steam quickly and settle down fast. Place your hand on their breast to place them back down on the ground.

Please do not drop a chicken. They can get injured.

Best to place your hands over the wings to hold them from flapping and place them down feet first to the ground – and then release. You can use your body to hold down a wing, too.
​

​Eggs come out hard. They may be warm and slightly damp just as they are being laid, but dry rapidly. If they come out soft and stay soft, then start feeding the chickens shellgrit to hardened up their shells again. Chickens need calcium from shellgrit for good strong shells.
​

Chickens do NOT go through pregnancy.

If they are housed WITH A ROOSTER, they may or may not lay fertilised eggs. These eggs will only develop into chicks if kept at the correct incubation heat for 21 days once laid.

A fat chicken does not indicate fertile eggs.
​

​Fertilised eggs can be kept at room temperature for about 7 days. In that time, mother hen will hop on and off her nest and lay an egg every day. By the 7th day or so, she will become broody and SIT. This sitting produces heat to warm up the eggs. This is when the fertilised eggs start developing into chickens. That is called DAY 1. By day 21, all chicks should hatch together.
​

Chickens are able to push the egg out all by themselves while sitting in their nest. No human help is required.

The eggs come out the back end of the hen. The same place they poo from.
​

​No, roosters do not lay eggs and they do not help hens create eggs. They are ONLY for fertilisation (to make babies).
​They are boys. Egg laying is only for the girls.
​

​Chickens do NOT produce milk. Chicks will only need water and Chick Starter Crumble from time of hatching.
​

A cockerel is a young boy. He will be called a rooster once he is over 12 months of age.
​

Before.
​The sperm needs to travel the hen’s reproductive tract to fertilise the yolks that are waiting. The shell will then form over the yolks to create the complete egg, which will then be laid.
​

Eggs will only be fertilised if there is a rooster in the flock.

They have to be tested by cracking open a few eggs on a plate. The yolk is inspected for the “bullseye” which shows development. These eggs can be eaten or thrown away after this inspection. They cannot go on to become chicks because their shells are broken. Once the consistency of “bullseyes” are found, then you have the green light for hatching.

When we know they are fertile, we can assume that the other eggs that the hen is laying are fertile too. Mother hen is likely to become broody and willing to keep sitting on her eggs to hatch them.
​

​No. Chickens are very resilient. Moulting is a natural part of their life. Feathers grow back again.
​

No, please do not put clothing on chickens!

Many people like to KNIT outfits for hens thinking that they look cute and are helping with keeping them warm.

When knitted clothing gets wet, they hold the cold up against the chicken, which can affect their health. They have no way of drying out naturally.
​
Ever had wet sleeves on a cold winter’s day? It wasn’t comfortable was it? Same for the chickens. They are better without chicken clothing.
​

It will depend on the breed that you choose for egg laying.

If you choose a utility hybrid breed like an ISA Brown, Hy-Line or similar, you will be rewarded with daily eggs.
Can you eat 10 eggs a day? Do you have family/friends who would also like fresh eggs?

If you do not need 10 eggs every day, then consider another breed that lays less eggs per week.
Research which breed is right for you.

Do you want big eggs or little eggs? (Standard breed or Bantam breed)
​
​The shell colour makes NO DIFFERENCE to the taste of the eggs.

Chickens really don’t like to fly. Chickens have limited flight capabilities, and the heavier the breed, the more limited they become.

For a chicken, it’s more about getting up or down from perches than taking off into the wild blue yonder.

There are the occasional escapee chickens, usually of the ISA Brown breed because they are so curious and lightweight. Some chickens prefer to roost up in trees. To limit escapees, ensure that all fences in your yard are at least 1.5m tall, and that’s most properties. Wing clipping can also stop escapees. EASY.

Chickens know where the food is and that’s what they hang around for.

​No. The name ‘Chicken Pox’ is misleading. This virus does NOT come from chickens. It is not able to be transmitted across different species.
​

​If this is not part of a breed characteristic – such as a Leghorn or Ancona (Mediterranean breeds), then it might be a sign of a sick chicken. Are there any other symptoms? Consult your vet for further advice.
​

​Three possible reasons:

1. During winter or cold days the blood flow recedes and makes the comb look paler.
2. Egg laying reduces or ceases during late autumn/early winter. When they are ready to lay again, the comb will become redder.
3. Sick chicken. Check for other signs of illness. Make an appointment to see your vet.

​

​Sick chicken. This is a sign of heart troubles caused by illness. Make an appointment to see your vet.

Can poultry be wormed with vinegar, (DE) diatomaceous earth, pumpkin seeds, chili, etc?

These ideas seem to keep persisting across the internet and amongst those who want to try all natural remedies. These have been repeatedly tested by numerous poultry and veterinary people to see if the claims hold true.


So here's a basic test: Would you give yourself these same remedies to cure worms in your gut?
The answer is no, because depending on what type of worm you have you would need a specific or broad spectrum active medication. Medicating for Tape Worm is very different to medicating for Thread Worm. One will not work for the other.

All of these products are still great for poultry as a supplement, a reducer or a health tonic - each one has unique benefits but not for worming. The science just doesn't hold for worming.


Where did these ideas come from?

Let's blame the internet for this one. So many of these claims were taken out of context from lone bloggers and the myths grew. A suggested idea becomes another's claim which becomes a statement of fact and so the myths build. Everyone is hoping for a new alternative.

They may assist in some small way in LOWERING the level of worms in the gut, but once again, it does not act as a cure.

When I ask people who love natural remedies if they have ever had a stool (fecal) sample from their poultry tested, it is usually met with hostility and defensiveness rather than an honest answer in the negative. This subject seems to be fraught with emotionalism for some reason. Be brave, and try a test. It really is worth it for your hens' health if you stand opposed to modern day medical science medications. Its worthwhile for their health to investigate wisely.


To get your poultry poos tested for parasites:

Para-Site Diagnostic Services
PO Box 924
Benalla VIC 3671
PH: (03) 5766 4374

DOWNLOAD their PDF form here

Service for the count and identification of intestinal parasites of sheep, cattle, horses, goats, alpacas, pigs and poultry from anywhere in Australia. From one animal or more.

Call Para-Site Diagnostic Services for your free faecal submission kits.


Summary
​The answer is that none of these will rid poultry of intestinal worms.They simply do not work.
No 'natural' wormer can act as a broad spectrum remedy.

In faecal samples, intestinal worms were found not be eradicated.

Please contact your local veterinary service or parasite diagnostic service if you have any concerns over these facts.
​Testing will no doubt settle the issue in your own mind.


Articles
- The Problem With Pumpkin Seeds by Andy Schneider (The Chicken Whisperer)
- The Truth About Diatomaceous Earth as a Wormer - The Chicken Whisperer


For more helpful information about worming, click on my page:
How to Worm Chickens

​When you find that your flock of chickens or other poultry have such an excellent egg output, selling a carton or two to friends, family and neighbours can certainly help in covering feed costs.
 
But then comes the inevitable BUYER COMPLAINT.
 
To a poultry owner, any complaints against our beautiful girls’ eggs can feel like a slap in the face.
​
We are not mass producers who keep chickens locked up all day in a big shed inside cages that are as small as an A4 sheet of paper. We give them sunshine, foraging, treats, and the best healthcare. Did we mention the extra treats and love?
 
So what are these complaints based on? The need for some egg education.
​
​

​COMMENT: “Your eggs are partly fertilised. There were two umbilical cords in the egg.”
​
ANSWER: What looks like umbilical cords are actually an important part of the egg called the Chalaza. It helps to hold the egg yolk in place and completely normal and edible. The older the egg becomes, the harder it is to see.

​COMMENT: “Your eggs are fertilised. I can see a white dot on the egg yolk. I was told this is a start of a baby chick.”

ANSWER: All yolks have a little white dot on them. When you crack open the egg, it may be hidden underneath, but every egg will have one. This is called the Blastoderm (Germinal Disc). If it is fertile, it will look like a bulls-eye. Even then, fertilised eggs are still completely edible at this early stage.
 

COMMENT: “Your egg shells are too thin. My husband says you should give them something called shellgrit.”
​
ANSWER: This is a challenge for almost every chicken owner on the planet. Sometimes it’s just great genetics that make strong shells, other times it can be dietary. Shellgrit may be present all the time, but some hens won’t eat shellgrit, other times it can be because they have had too many dark leafy greens in their diet which may block calcium – it is all about balance. Changes in temperature and age are also to blame. Many owners use Apple Cider Vinegar in the hen’s water to help with their calcium up take. But sometimes, nothing fixes it.


COMMENT: “Your eggs have white crumbly bits on the outside. Is this…from worms, OK to eat, is your chicken sick, will this make me sick, etc.?”
​
ANSWER: It is normally to find extra calcium deposits on the external shell from time to time. This is an excess of calcium that the chicken releases. This will in no way affect the egg internally nor increase the egg’s calcium level in your diet. Worm eggs do NOT live on the outside of eggs.

​
​COMMENT: “The eggs shells are all different colours. Do they taste different? Do the blue coloured eggs have a blue yolk?”

ANSWER: Different breeds lay eggs with different coloured shells. This does not affect the flavour or health value of the egg in any way. The shell does not colour the yolk. All eggs are the same on the inside.

 
COMMENT: “One egg shell is all wrinkly looking. Is it safe to eat?”

ANSWER: Egg shells can go through all sorts of stresses inside the chicken’s body for one reason or another. This might be affected by reduced hours of sunlight, sudden change in diet, flock stress of introducing new hens, health and pecking order. Sometimes, the stresses are not even evident, but egg shells are not always 100% perfect but this does not affect the taste of the egg inside.

 
COMMENT: “There was dried chicken poo on one of the eggs. I threw it out.”

ANSWER: The dilemma of to wash or not to wash eggs is always going to be a big debate. If eggs are washed, this can allow a transference of bacteria to more easily access the egg and therefore cause the egg to become unsafe for consumption. Many people still try to wipe over their eggs with a damp cloth to remove the worst of the soiling which is considered the safer option. However, this may still not be able to fully remove all dried poo. The poo is safest in its dry state, rather than being wet. A slightly dirty shelled egg is still safe to eat so long as the poo does not go into the cracked open egg.
 

COMMENT: “All the whites looked strangely golden so I threw them out.”

ANSWER: Congratulations, you just threw out the world’s healthiest vitamin packed eggs. Golden whites hold all the vitamins. That’s why people on diets have egg white omelettes.

 
COMMENT: “Your egg yolks are too pale. These eggs are not from healthy chickens.”

ANSWER: Egg yolks are affected by Vitamin A in the diet. To make darker eggs, increased treats of dark leafy greens, and fruit & vegetables that are red, orange or yellow will help to make them darker. Some chickens may not have access to these in their diet but still pick it up in their dry grain feed. Remember that the majority of vitamins are actually located in the white, not the yolk.

 
COMMENT: “Maybe you should try a different rooster to make the hens lay different eggs.”

ANSWER: Roosters do NOT help chickens to lay eggs, just like a woman does not need a man to ovulate. Having a rooster does NOT make the eggs different other than fertilised.
 

COMMENT: “I thought you couldn’t have roosters in this council area.”
​
ANSWER: You may not have a rooster, but it’s hinting at the same old thing: Roosters do NOT help chickens to lay eggs, just like a woman does not need a man to ovulate. Having a rooster does NOT make the eggs different other than fertilised.


COMMENT: “Your eggs made me sick.”

ANSWER: This one COULD BE TRUE.

1. If you have given an antibiotic to any of your poultry within the last month, this can cause a person to become very ill after consuming their egg. Most especially for those who have an allergy to Penicillin. Egg withhold must be practiced for 14-28 days after the last day of medication.
2. Salmonella is also transmittable through egg shells. Never sell an egg that has been cracked or shell-less. The shell’s integrity protects the egg interior against bacteria. If you have Salmonella in your small backyard flock, it is very likely that you won’t miss seeing a sick hen infected with it.
   Salmonella in chickens
   Salmonella in humans
3. If you collected up a clutch of old eggs that you found hidden in a flower pot without testing them for age by the float test, this may also be where the bad egg may have come from.
4. If nothing like this has occurred in the flock, then the basis for the complaint really needs to be questioned a little further. There may be been other handling issues by the buyer.

 

COMMENT: “Are your chicken eggs organic?”

ANSWER: Organic status is incredibly hard to obtain. Not only does the soil in your yard have to have passed the 8-year-organic-certification-test, but the food source the hens consume must also be certified organic. Fruit and veg scraps that they are given as treats also have to have been 100% certified organic. They cannot be vaccinated or given worming treatment. This would only be truly obtainable by dedicated organic farmers who can achieve this on the scale (and cost) that it needs. So the likelihood of ‘organic’ looks incredibly unlikely from most backyard poultry keepers.
 

COMMENT: “Are your chickens vegetarian?”

ANSWER: Chickens are omnivores, which means that they need a certain level of protein that grains alone cannot provide. Chickens are known to hunt and eat mice or eat their own eggs if their protein levels are too low in their diet. Meat products, meal worms, yoghurt and black sunflower seeds are all good extra sources of protein. They need a balanced diet to keep laying eggs.​


COMMENT: “Your eggs are difficult to hard boil. All the shell gets stuck to them. This doesn’t happen with the ones I buy from the shop.”
​
ANSWER: Eggs that are FRESH are great for poaching and frying, while the older eggs are ideal for hard boiling. It’s all about the age of the egg. Shop bought eggs are older when sold.

COMMENT: “I want more of those brown eggs. They are healthier than the white ones.”

ANSWER: The shell colour does not affect the flavour or vitamin value of an egg.
 

COMMENT: “I can only eat the white shelled eggs because they are sanitary.”

ANSWER: Whiteness does not equal cleanliness. In Australia, we do not bleach or pasteurise eggs.
 

COMMENT: “If you don’t have that breed of chicken any more, I can’t buy from you. Only the eggs from that particular chicken breed will cure my illness.”

ANSWER: There is no scientific proof that eggs from any breed of poultry will cure any illness. This is a dangerous myth to trust in.
 

COMMENT: “I can’t eat eggs from a flock that has a rooster in it. I’ll be eating their babies.”

ANSWER: Not all roosters are kept with the hens. Not all eggs will be fertile. Once eggs are collected and stored in the refrigerator, it stops the cell division process. These eggs are completely safe to eat. Only eggs left as room temperature for up to a week will show signs of development. If eggs are being stored in the fridge, there should be no concern; they will still be eaten.

 
COMMENT: “I found a spot of blood inside one of the eggs. What’s wrong with your chickens?”

ANSWER: Blood or meat spots inside of an egg will happen from time to time as things move down through the reproductive tract when egg laying. It is random and does not indicate anything wrong with the chicken. It’s only blood in the poo that would be an indicator of poor health. The blood or meat spot can be easily removed from the white with a spoon or part of the egg shell. The egg is not tainted.
 

COMMENT: “I couldn’t get your eggs to hatch in my incubator. My kids were so disappointed.”
​
ANSWER: Unfertilised eggs won’t ever hatch because there is no chick developing inside of them. Fertilised eggs cost a lot more if I sold them to you, by the way. (P.S. I’m not a breeder.)
​

COMMENT: “Your eggs tasted weird this time. What’s going on?”

ANSWER: Did we feed our chickens something different like onion, fish or a new weed that they hens have access to? All these things can change the flavour of the egg.
But also consider where did the BUYER store the eggs after purchase? Was it near an onion in the fridge or something else a little more pungent?
 

COMMENT: “I didn’t expect that you would have any eggs available this week after the thunderstorm a couple of nights ago. Didn’t that put your chickens off of laying?”

ANSWER: No tractor, combine harvester, egg truck, milk truck, grain milling, drilling or shed construction ever put any chickens off of laying on a farm. We have eggs available this week for you.

 
COMMENT: “Why don’t you have eggs available all the time?”

ANSWER: In summer and autumn, chickens can go through three things that will put them off of laying for a short while:

1. Moulting season (loss of feathers to regrow new ones)
2. Broodiness (they sit without laying eggs)
3. Heat stress (reduces the desire to lay eggs)

 

COMMENT: “I buy from you because the supermarket eggs are full of hormones.”

ANSWER: No egg is full of hormones unless it is growing into a beautiful little chick inside.

 
COMMENT: “Your eggs are natural. They come from actual chickens.”

ANSWER: All eggs come from poultry. (This conversation has happened more times that what I can recall. Unless they meant reptiles as the alternative.)
​